RULES IN POSTING


1. Strictly on K7, K8, Pentium 4 and Pentium-M discussion.


2. Discussion on technical / engineering aspects is allowed.

-> try to discuss and relate to the processor listed in rule #1


3. If you wanna post any personal comments, pls do these:

-> support with facts, links to review site, screenshots and logical reasons.
-> restrictions in (1) applied.


4. If you wanna post personal benchmark or test result, pls do these:

-> test procedure, benchmark used, screenshots and test results.
-> restrictions in (1) applied.


5. NO question on RAM, motherboard and anything unrelated to CPU.


6. Do not ask questions where the answers can be found from the links given.


7. If you wanna post speculation and rumours :

-> strictly on processors listed in rule #1
-> make a red color and bold title stating "speculation / rumours"
-> NO DISCUSSION about speculations.
-> It's bcoz i dun want any misleading info n comments.


Temporary Rules : Pls NO discussion on Conroe architecture or performance until it debuts, the assumptions might cause misleading information later.

If anybody broke any rules mentioned above, post will be deleted and you might get a warning if you are being fanboyish.

BASIC CPU KNOWLEDGE (HERE)
* Transistor
* Clock speed
* Functional Unit (ALU, FPU etc)
* Registers
* Address Space
* Pipeline
* Cache
* Why AMD can match Intel even at lower clock speed?


GENERAL SPECIFICATION (HERE)
* Pentium 4 (Williamate to Prescott F)
* Athlon 64 (Hammer series to San Diego/Venice)


POWER CONSUMPTION / HEAT (HERE)
* 5xx and 6xx power & heat
* All Athlon64 power & heat
* Some basic regarding heatsink C/W and heat calculation.
* The advantages of having low heat or power consumption.


BRIEF COMPARISON (531, 630, 3000+, 3200+) (HERE)
* Best performance CPU.
* Best performance to price ratio CPU.
* Best performance to power ratio CPU.
* Short conclusion and explanation.


DETAIL COMPARISON (531, 630, 3000+, 3200+) (HERE)
* General usage
* Different types of Multitasking and its performance.
* Video and Image editing
* Video and Audio encoding
* Gaming application
* 3D Model Rendering
* Science and maths application
* Software Development
* Explanation in each comparison table.


Athlon64x2 and New memory divider (HERE)
* The performance boost by replacing DDR400 with DDR480 (in multitasking)


Some A64 Overclocking Statistic(HERE)
* Please register before u can view them

Multiprocessor / dual core and server related

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A64x2 4800+ vs PD XE 840
(link 1, link 2)


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A64x2 3800+ - Mainstream Dual Core

Price Range : 300 - 400 USD (abt RM1200-1600)

Contenders: AMD Athlon 64x2 3800+, Intel Pentium D 830.

Summary:
1. Athlon64x2 outperformed Pentium D 30 out of 31 benchmarks.
2. Athlon64x2 scaled up about the same as Pentium D when another core is added.

Click HERE for more info.


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Dual Opteron 275 review

Xbitlabs has reviewed on dual opteron 275 (dual core) in different professional application. A must read for graphic and animation designer

full review here

Competitors:
1. Athlon64x2 4800+ (dual core)
2. Athlon64 FX 57 (single core)
3. Pentium XE 840 (dual core with HT)
4. Pentium4 XE 3.73GHz (HT)

The main competitor will be Pentium XE 840 since it has four cores (2 physical and 2 virtual).

Winners:

Scientific : A64 FX57
Encoding : A64x2 4800+
Adobe suits : Dual Opteron
3D Rendering : Dual Opteron (multi threaded) or A64FX57 (single threaded)
Engineering : A64FX57

Performance summary:

- Not much benefits when comes to video encoding bcoz software doesnt support 4 simultaneous threads.
- Excellent performance in Adobe and 3D renderers (multithread optimized).
- For non multithread optimized software, Athlon FX57 performed best.
- Sadly, Pentium XE and Pentium4 XE lost in almost every benchmark.


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Misc. Dual Core Info & News

Intel Pentium D is a rush job !
Source 1 - PC World
Source 2 - Xbitlabs
(links provided by almostthere)


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Game server related

I have no idea how RO works, bcoz i nv played b4. I assumed the server receives requests from the clients connected to it and provide data as request (more like a database server). Here's something u can read about. Besides, IMHO, Athlon64 with HTT is good for I/O based server such as RO which receives many request through network and load data out from RAM or HDD. The tradisional NB and SB implemented in Intel doesn't do as well as Athlon64 with HTT. However, if the game server software supports HT, P4 might have some advantages. In short, I'm can't give u a definite answer on which CPU performs better. I've tried google but most of them are based on dual or quad proc performance, which Opteron / Athlon64 performs better than Xeon / P4.

If u put aside the performance issue, Athlon64 might be a good choice as it runs cool and consume 2x less power compare to P4 530. All you need is js an original heatsink and a low wattage (maybe around 300W) server class PSU. This makes the initial price and operation cost of AMD based server cheaper than Intel's.

Mobile Processor vs Desktop Processor



Pentium-M vs Pentium 4 and Athlon64:
Which is the best overall processor?
Read here

quick summary
read it yrself. Different procs show off in different field.


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Pentium-M vs Turion64 (single channel A64)
Read here

Quick Summary :

Both processor performs well and have their respective strength in different fields. Pentium-M is stronger in light applications such as Office, General usage and etc, where cache is an important factor. Turion64 shines in professional application (3D rendering, compiling), gaming and encoding which heavily uses the FPU. However, the margin of winning is very little, maybe by 1-5% only.

Both processors have little difference in power consumption (for non LV) and similar power management technology too. Non LV Pentium-M consumes a max of 28W and Turion64 consumes 35W max. LV (low voltage) version usually has lower clock speed, especially for Pentium-M series (1.4GHz and below). LV Pentium-M consumes about 14W max and Turion64 (1.8GHz) consumes 25W max. However, if you very seldom full load the CPU, both processors operates at less than 5W (due to EIST and CnQ). According to Sandpile.org, the minimum power for Dothan is about 4.2W and A64 (Turion64?) is 3.2W according to tomshardware. The difference is very little only. In overall, Pentium M still has the edge in power consumption compare to Turion64.


More info / readings can be found here

* note on power consumption:
In mobile, 20W difference is really huge. 10W difference is consider huge already. 1-5W can be considered little difference. (thx for the reminder from ikanayam)


*edit : I was referring to sandpile.org for the power consumption but it seems outdated. According to ikanayam, there's 1.6GHz LV P-M with TDP 10W, but not sure about the Max power.

Celeron D vs Sempron64
Source : Anandtech

Competitors:
1. Athlon64 3200+ (2.0GHz)
2. Athlon64 3000+ (1.8GHz)
3. Sempron 3300+ (2.0GHz)
4. Sempron 3100+ (1.8GHz)
5. Celeron 345D (3.06GHz)


Winners: (put aside Athlon64)

General usage : AMD Sempron 3300+
Multimedia CC : AMD Sempron 3300+
Video/photo editing : AMD Sempron 3300+
Video/audio encoding : Intel Celeron D 345
Gaming apps : AMD Sempron 3300+
3D Rendering : AMD Sempron 3300+
Professional apps : AMD Sempron 3300+


Performance summary:

- In average, Celeron D lost to Sempron64 in almost all benchmarks, except video and audio encoding.
- The performance characteristic is the same as P4 vs A64.
- Even a 3100+ with 1.8GHz can go against 345D with 3.06GHz.
- Athlon64 still managed to pull ahead in most of the apps compare to Sempron 3300+

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sempron64 vs AthlonXP

* The Sempron based on Socket 462 (socket A) is actually a renamed Athlon XP.
* Full review can be found here

Processors :
AMD Sempron 2600+ (1.60GHz, 128KB L2, S754)
AMD Sempron 2600+ (1.83GHz, 256KB L2, S462)


Performance summary:
Gaming apps : Sempron (S754)
Audio encode : Sempron (S462)
Video encode : Sempron (S754)
Sciencemark : Sempron (S462)
3D rendering : Sempron (S462)


Conclusion:

- Sempron 2600+ based on S754 performs near to Sempron 2600+ based on S462.
- K8 architecture (S754) at lower clock can perform at the same level as K7 architecture at higher clock.
- Hence, at the same clock speed and cache size, a K8 Sempron can outperform an AthlonXP (K7).


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Athlon64 vs AthlonXP

* Full review can be found here

Processors :
AMD Athlon XP 3200+ (2.20GHz, 512KB L2, S462)
AMD Athlon 64 3400+ (2.20GHz, 512KB L2, S754)
AMD Athlon 64 FX-51 (2.20GHz, 1024KB L2, S939)


Performance summary: (K8 wins in %)
General Apps : +15.4%
Content creation : +19.7%
Gaming Apps : +28.2%
Software compile : +5%
Video encoding : + 18.5%
3D Rendering : +84.5%

Conclusion:

- Obviously, the new architecture rox

Some of the quotes from my old posts (which has been deleted to keep the thread clean) :

64-bit vs 32-bit

1. If you compare them under 32-bit environment, like Windows XP, there's no difference for P4 531 compare to 530. Currently, EMT64 is just some unnecessary stuff for Intel to tell users that it has something new. Athlon64's x86-64 is not needed actually. It's just a marketing gimmick for desktop users. 64-bit capability mostly benefits the server users who need more than 4GB of memory address and slightly faster operations due to 64-bit internal registers. The new Windows Vista supports 64-bit, so it can utilize x86-64 and EMT64

2. In x86-64 or EMT-64, registers are extended 2x, but other functional units remain the same, so the performance improvement is not 2x for sure.

3. Every 1 byte in RAM is mapped into 1 address. A 32-bit address (32-lines wire) supports up to 4 Billion bytes (2^32 = 4GB) of RAM space. Extending it to 64-bit allows 2^64 = 1.84 x 10^19 bytes (1,840,000 TB) of RAM installed in a computer system. Athlon64 and Pentium 4 currently supported 40-bit address space instead of 64-bit (1TB max)



Multitasking & Hyper Threading

There are 2 types nowadays: Time sharing and Simultaneous Multitasking. You need to know this before choosing the correct CPU.

Time sharing has NOT MUCH difference from single tasking. Basically, you are just working on one application per time and other applications idle in the background.For example, opened MS Word, Excel, Powerpoint, but you only typing in MS Word. Hyper Threading won't help much at all. Big RAM capacity is the key to smoothness operation, since u won't want the application to swap into virtual memory in hard disk.

Another scenario of time sharing multitasking is running full load program in background such as Folding @ Home. Actually the program is set to 'low priority' by default, so running this in background with some light foreground application or gaming in foreground isn't considered as simultaneous multitasking. It's because Folding @ Home won't compete with other applications to take CPU resources, as it is set to low priority.

Simultaneous Multitasking means, the software you openend are running together. For example, while Norton Antivirus is scanning the system in background and you are typing documents with Microsoft Word at the same time. This is where Hyper Threading kicks in, and Pentium 4 is a better processor. If you are just running light programs like Winamp or MSN messenger in the background (both software takes very little CPU resources when running), and typing your document in MS Word, Hyper Threading will help a little in smoothness.

Hence, Hyper Threading shows its true potential only when two or more HEAVY programs are running simultaneously. Besides this, Hyper Threading is not everything. It is still lagging, but not as bad as AMD Athlon64 only. The reason is, HT is not the true dual processing, but some kind of pipeline rescheduling scheme to counter the inefficient usage of functional units in the processor. It appeared to have 2 CPUs bcoz Intel adds in PC (Program Counter) register and some related control unit registers to make the OS 'sees' 2 processors.



Cool n Quiet vs EIST

Similarity :
1. Both of the technology saves power only when the CPU load is LOW or IDLE --> means when u r doing nothing basically.

2. During full load (gaming for example), the max power consumption is shown in the power consumption table in pinned thread. For example 43W for 3000+ and 106W for 630. EIST or CnQ doesnt work at this time.

How EIST works
It decrease the Vcore and clock speed of the CPU. The minimum clock speed is 2.8GHz. Hence, if u hv a 2.8GHz CPU, there is NO gain at all bcoz 2.8GHz is the lowest supported clock in EIST. If you have a 3.0GHz P4, u only able to reduce a merely 200MHz. FYI, decrease in clock speed and Vcore enables to proc to run cooler. That's how it saves power and reduce heat.

Cool n' Quiet
It's an advancement over the PowerNow! technology based on K6-3 mobile procs a few years back. The lowest clock supported is 800MHz. Hence any procs in A64 series benefits a lot with cool n quiet bcoz the lowest clocked A64 is 1.8GHz and it still has 1.0GHz to decrease. This results in more heat and power reduction compare to Pentium 4.



A64 with DDR2
AMD will introduce Socket M2 and change its memory controller to support DDR2. BUT, i came across the heat will increase slightly when the memory controller has changed. I dun think the difference will be a lot too. In overall i guess it would be around 10% performance boost and it might be less for single core processors.

SOURCE <--- Thanx Mowgli for this link

It's due to the different architecture by both processors. Intel needs 2MB L2 cache to have the CPU working at certain level of performance, but Athlon64 needs only 512KB.

If u read the 'CPU basic knowledge', cache is something for temporary storage. Generally, if the cache is larger, the processor can perform better. For example, Athlon64 2.4GHz with 1MB L2 (4000+) > Athlon64 2.4GHz with 512KB L2 (3800+). Larger cache = better performance applies to the same family of CPU, but not necessary for CPU from different manufacturers.

Stability Test

If you think Intel is stable but AMD is not, can read the link provided below:
Tomshardware

I know some people found Tomshardware is a bit biased to Intel processors, but IMHO, it can be a good reference for you.


Here's some guides to do your own CPU stability test :

Prime 95 :

- Option -> Torture Test -> Custom
- Set the min FFT to 8K
- Set the max to your CPU L2 cache size.
- Tick 'run in place FFT' to enable cache as storing element.
- Time to run FFT sets to 10 minutes.

* Basically Prime95 stresses your FPU the most together with some L2 cache stress.

* Prime95 author recommends to run the torture test for more than 24 hours. My system passed this test and able to do United Device (something like Folding@Home) for more than 1 month without restarting Windows.


Sandra CPU burn-in :

- Set it to run CPU Arithmetic benchmark continuouly in background.
- Arithmetic test stresses the Arithmetic and Logic Unit of a processor.
- Any sign of instability might cause the computer to freeze or autorestart.
- A registered version will display an error report upon completion.


You can run both Sandra CPU and Prime95 stress test together, as both utilities stressed on different components of CPU. I'd recommend a 24 hours stress test to ensure absolute stability. At this state, your computer won't be giving random problems due to CPU. Unstable processor can cause the OS to corrupt and formatting might be required.

Here's some performance review in Linux environment. It shows some general application rather than server application.

LINK

NEWS: Revamped Pentium D

Full story: Xbitlabs


Summary:

- The top-of-the-line chip will not get a new stepping, whereas the least powerful processor will face conversion.

- changes from the A0 to the B0 core processor stepping change, including CPUID change from F44 to F47.

-The B0 stepping was claimed to be pin compatible with A0, but new S-Specs were promised to be introduced for converting products.

- Intel Pentium processor Extreme Edition 840 chip remains unchanged on the A0 stepping through End-of-Life.

- B0 will be slightly different in thermal, mechanical and electrical specification.

- First samples of the updated chips were expected to be released on 5/8/2005.

AMD Sempron S939 review at Xbitlabs

A PM i get from Antabaka's friend. I think many ppl would ask the same question too. Here's my answer to it.



First of all, I don't do benchmark myself, but analyse some famous review sites like Anandtech and Xbitlabs, and then convert their graphs into a data set containing percentage. I made comments based on facts about the architecture and benchmark results. Your fren should understand if he studies computer engineering.

Here's something nice about Pentium 4 Netburst architecture:
Part I, Part II, Part III


1. Well, your fren is correct when it comes to 200 - 250 price range. Intel is the only choice for video and graphic editing.

2. AMD has better multitasking ability in their Athlon64x2, it is reasonable to price it higher. As you can see 3800+ wins 30/31 benchmarks from Anandtech, and of course many other review sites.

3. Since Pentium 4 and Pentium D is hot, it always reach around 70C during hot afternoon with stock cooler. From tomshardware stability test, Intel system restarted a few times, but AMD system had no restart at all. It is due to the high power consumption which made the power supply couldnt sustain. Hence, u need a real good power supply which may cost RM100-200 more than the PSU used by AMD system. Besides, the heat generated requires a good heatsink fan which cost you another RM250. If u dun put on the heatsink, P4 or PD tend to lower down the clock speed (reduce performance) in order to keep the processor cool enough for normal operation.

4. Pentium D definitely emits MORE heat than Pentium 4 prescott. Your fren said it emits the same heat bcoz of almost same temperature. The same temperature is due to the increased die size which allows the heat to dissipate faster.

5. In long term, Pentium 4 and Pentium D isnt worth. Every month you gotta spend extra money for more than 2x higher power consumption (60W vs 130W). Adding all the cost, I think Athlon64x2 is worther. Besides this, time is money, if u can work faster, paying a lil more to get Athlon64x2 is definitely worth.

6. P = IV. P = power, I = curent, V=voltage. When power goes high, and the voltage remains constant, I (current) must increase to supply enough power. When current increases, the amount of electron inside the processor increased too. As a result of electron impingement with the very fine traces in proc, the traces (some kind of super thin wire) will break after some time. This is what they called electromigration effect (which can cause sudden malfunction). So far it only happens to Intel Pentium 4 only.

7. If you bought a Pentium 4 board, u cannot upgrade to a Pentium D in the future, but if you bought an Athlon64 board (let's say S939), you still can put in an Athlon64FX or X2 into it, when the price becomes cheaper. So which upgrade cost is more expensive?

8. Cedar Mill and Presler with 65nm? Nah, it is still the same Netburst. The trace is even finer compare to 90nm counterpart, and the electromigration effect might be even worse, unless they strengthen the traces to withstand the impingement of electrons. Well, if Netburst is good, Intel won't desperately research on whole new architecture called Conroe.

9. No matter how Intel tweaks Pentium 4, Netburst is proven a not so good architecture compare to K8. It's very inefficient in terms of power and performance.

10. Last but not least, we don't need to upgrade the hardware monthly, that's plain stupid and a waste of $. A video / graphic editing system can last you at least 6 months. As u know Intel always come out with new chipset to support new procs, old platform kenot use new processor. Opting an Intel system might probably end up spending more $ for some upgrades.

SOURCE : AMD forum, A64 revision guideline

New Updates :
- E6 vs E3 (Athlon64 revision)


Old updates :

- Sempron S939 review.
- some FAQ.
- Athlon XP vs Athlon 64
- Sempron 64 vs Athlon XP at the same rating (2600+)
- Sempron 64 vs Celeron D

^ can be found in post #5.
- Discussion is allowed in this thread now.
- Old discussion will be removed on 1st Nov.
- Some useful contents in old discussion will be quoted here.
- Please stick to the rules in posting as stated in post #1.

Half way doing version 2 review. This is the overall comparison analysis.

CLICK HERE


Processors reviewed :
P4 530 --> 570
P4 630 --> 670
P4X 3.73

A64 3000+ --> 4000+
A64 FX57

See some interesting results here :

in 2 games, Athlon64x2 with lower clock wins FX57 @ 2.8GHz.

in 1 game, the lower end of Athlon64 managed to outperform High end P4.

in 2 games, CPU has not much effect on the speed, mostly contributed by graphic card.

Full Review HERE

I migrated to AMD already and here what I found.........

AMD 3000+ Venice and Intel Pentium 530

Pentium boot into windows is faster than AMD
-Pentium < 1 minute
-AMD > 1 Minute 20 Seconds

on '03 3D Mark (6600GT)
-Pentium - 7999
-AMD - 8080

The temp......no need to say

and I think Intel have better memory management, due to HT on Intel

That is quite a lot !
1 min 20sec? I think my AXP system takes less than 1 min

anyway, HT is not about memory management, but the thread dispatching management. Maybe u got a lot of startup which load the proc quite significantly. That's y P4 can boot up faster than A64

can u pls list the startup progs of both system? thanx for sharing the info.

Yup, HT is about process management and AMD has the best memory controllers up to date.

both machine quite similar ^^
and both machine's startup only running "Adobe Gamma Loader"

AMD Athlon 64 FX 60 Review !!

LINK #1 : XBITLABS

LINK #2 : ANANDTECH

AMD 144 VS Intel P4 630

LINK #1 : pcpop

some applications are optimize either for intel or amd...and 20 seconds is not a really a big gap..it might caused by other things like harddisks...not only by the cpu itself..

haha, this thread is darn old i guess. No time to update on C2D vs A64.
Anyway, C2D wins almost ALL benchies in single processor mode (not single core). Symetric Multi Processing still favours AMD, but this is not the concern of desktop users like us.

from my experience with a friend FX-60 rig, it can be as good as FX-62 if the setup was correctly tweak.